Conservative Christianity and Social Issues

[sanantone]

There has not been one archeological find that has contradicted the Bible. If anything, the more digs they do, the more it validates the authenticity of the Bible.  

And you are inaccurate with your conclusion about one’s upbringing leading then to follow that particular faith. I know Christians who were actually raised Muslim and also people who were raised in a Christian home that are either now atheists or a different religion entirely.

It appears that you haven't put any effort into studying the origins of the Bible, the history of the Israelites, or the history of Judaism. I don't know why this was deleted, but I stated that I attended a conservative seminary. You seem to be upset that smart people have spent decades studying Christianity instead of believing what is told to them in church. 

I am not inaccurate in my conclusion about upbringing. I was raised Christian and ended up atheist. That doesn't change the fact that the majority of people do not change religions. To make sure that you understand, once again, "majority" does not mean "all." "Majority" means over 50%.

[acamp]

It appears that you haven't put any effort into studying the origins of the Bible, the history of the Israelites, or the history of Judaism. I don't know why this was deleted, but I stated that I attended a conservative seminary. You seem to be upset that smart people have spent decades studying Christianity instead of believing what is told to them in church. 

I am not inaccurate in my conclusion about upbringing. I was raised Christian and ended up atheist. That doesn't change the fact that the majority of people do not change religions. To make sure that you understand, once again, "majority" does not mean "all." "Majority" means over 50%.

We will have to respectfully agree to disagree. For the record, I am not upset at all because I don’t put stock in the “smart people who have spent decades studying Christianity”. I study the Bible for myself.  The “church” is not the authority for Christians - the Bible is.

[Charles Fout]

It was not my intent to make this discussion more contentious. I will scroll elsewhere.

[sanantone]

We will have to respectfully agree to disagree. For the record, I am not upset at all because I don’t put stock in the “smart people who have spent decades studying Christianity”. I study the Bible for myself.  The “church” is not the authority for Christians - the Bible is.

One can't authenticate the stories of the Bible with the Bible.

[Sagan]

I do know this: if sanantone went to church, I'd sit next to her and learn something.

[PearsonOTHMQualifi7654]

One can't authenticate the stories of the Bible with the Bible.

Bible manuscripts are important historical and archaeological discoveries. There are also numerous ancient writings outside the Bible that corroborate certain people, places, events, and cultural contexts described in Scripture. This is one reason Christian apologetics exists as a field of study. However, I think a discussion like this is better suited to a respectful, moderated debate with agreed-upon topics and prompts. I'm not sure a forum thread is the best format for exploring these issues in depth.

Having what some describe as three creation accounts does not necessarily mean there are contradictions. Many Christians understand Genesis 1 as the account of the original creation, Genesis 2 as a more detailed account focusing on the creation of humanity and life in Eden, and John 1 as a theological interpretation of creation through Jesus Christ, the Logos ("the Word"). Whether one accepts that interpretation is, of course, a matter of theological perspective.

The Gospels are ancient historical documents written in Koine Greek and are preserved in thousands of surviving manuscripts. They were written within the literary conventions of Greco-Roman biography and historiography, while also serving as theological accounts of Jesus' life and ministry.

The New Testament is supported by an exceptionally large manuscript tradition, with over 5,800 surviving Greek manuscripts and more than 24,000 manuscripts in total when early translations are included. While these manuscripts contain textual variants, the vast majority are minor (such as spelling or word order) and do not substantially alter the central message of the text.

Christians also believe that the Bible was written by approximately 40 authors over a period of about 1,500 years, across three continents (Asia, Africa, and Europe), in three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek). Protestants recognize a canon of 66 books, while the Roman Catholic Church recognizes 73 books, the Eastern Orthodox Churches generally recognize 76 to 81 books (depending on the tradition), and the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church recognizes the broadest biblical canon, with 81 books in its standard canon and an even broader collection in its wider canon. Despite differences in the canon, Christians believe the Scriptures tell one unified story of God's relationship with humanity, culminating in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Christians also believe that Jesus fulfilled hundreds of Messianic prophecies found in the Old Testament. While the exact count varies among scholars, Christian apologists commonly cite more than 300 prophecies that they believe were fulfilled in the life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Although Jews and Christians interpret many of these passages differently.

Compared with other works from antiquity, the New Testament has a far richer manuscript tradition. This gives textual scholars a much larger body of evidence from which to reconstruct the original text than is available for most other ancient authors.

Likewise, many Christians believe the Bible contains concepts that are consistent with later scientific discoveries or principles. Examples often cited include references interpreted as anticipating an expanding universe, descriptions of natural cycles, and observations about the natural world. Others view these passages as theological or poetic rather than scientific. These are subjects that benefit from careful discussion rather than brief exchanges in a forum.

Many former Christians I've listened to describe leaving because they questioned aspects of the faith and felt they never received satisfactory answers. Others, however, have found answers later in life and returned to Christianity. Both experiences exist, which is why respectful dialogue can be valuable.

One phenomenon that I find particularly interesting is the number of people who convert from Islam to Christianity, despite the fact that in some countries and under some interpretations of Islamic law, apostasy can carry severe legal or social consequences, including, in certain jurisdictions, capital punishment.

My hope is simply that we can have thoughtful, respectful conversations, even when we disagree.

[sanantone]

Bible manuscripts are important historical and archaeological discoveries. There are also numerous ancient writings outside the Bible that corroborate certain people, places, events, and cultural contexts described in Scripture. This is one reason Christian apologetics exists as a field of study. However, I think a discussion like this is better suited to a respectful, moderated debate with agreed-upon topics and prompts. I'm not sure a forum thread is the best format for exploring these issues in depth.

Having what some describe as three creation accounts does not necessarily mean there are contradictions. Many Christians understand Genesis 1 as the account of the original creation, Genesis 2 as a more detailed account focusing on the creation of humanity and life in Eden, and John 1 as a theological interpretation of creation through Jesus Christ, the Logos ("the Word"). Whether one accepts that interpretation is, of course, a matter of theological perspective.

The Gospels are ancient historical documents written in Koine Greek and are preserved in thousands of surviving manuscripts. They were written within the literary conventions of Greco-Roman biography and historiography, while also serving as theological accounts of Jesus' life and ministry.

The New Testament is supported by an exceptionally large manuscript tradition, with over 5,800 surviving Greek manuscripts and more than 24,000 manuscripts in total when early translations are included. While these manuscripts contain textual variants, the vast majority are minor (such as spelling or word order) and do not substantially alter the central message of the text.

Christians also believe that the Bible was written by approximately 40 authors over a period of about 1,500 years, across three continents (Asia, Africa, and Europe), in three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek). Protestants recognize a canon of 66 books, while the Roman Catholic Church recognizes 73 books, the Eastern Orthodox Churches generally recognize 76 to 81 books (depending on the tradition), and the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church recognizes the broadest biblical canon, with 81 books in its standard canon and an even broader collection in its wider canon. Despite differences in the canon, Christians believe the Scriptures tell one unified story of God's relationship with humanity, culminating in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Christians also believe that Jesus fulfilled hundreds of Messianic prophecies found in the Old Testament. While the exact count varies among scholars, Christian apologists commonly cite more than 300 prophecies that they believe were fulfilled in the life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Although Jews and Christians interpret many of these passages differently.

Compared with other works from antiquity, the New Testament has a far richer manuscript tradition. This gives textual scholars a much larger body of evidence from which to reconstruct the original text than is available for most other ancient authors.

Likewise, many Christians believe the Bible contains concepts that are consistent with later scientific discoveries or principles. Examples often cited include references interpreted as anticipating an expanding universe, descriptions of natural cycles, and observations about the natural world. Others view these passages as theological or poetic rather than scientific. These are subjects that benefit from careful discussion rather than brief exchanges in a forum.

Many former Christians I've listened to describe leaving because they questioned aspects of the faith and felt they never received satisfactory answers. Others, however, have found answers later in life and returned to Christianity. Both experiences exist, which is why respectful dialogue can be valuable.

One phenomenon that I find particularly interesting is the number of people who convert from Islam to Christianity, despite the fact that in some countries and under some interpretations of Islamic law, apostasy can carry severe legal or social consequences, including, in certain jurisdictions, capital punishment.

My hope is simply that we can have thoughtful, respectful conversations, even when we disagree.

Of course, there are historical figures in the Bible and some historical events in the Bible. SOME of the Bible has been corroborated. When history is mixed with myths, it's called a legend. Christians aren't the first or last group to create legends. You used "believe" a lot, but people across many religions believe a lot of things that are true and untrue. What is the point that is trying to be made? Most Christians do not believe the entire Bible should be taken literally, so they don't even believe everything that's in the Bible.

I also find the number of Christians, especially Black American Christians, who convert to Islam to be fascinating. Both Christianity and Islam have a long history of terrorizing, murdering, raping, and enslaving millions of Black Africans. Both religions have a history of extreme racism toward Black people. I find it interesting that there are descendants of Indigenous Americans who are still Christian, even though Christians genocided them. There are historical and psychosocial reasons for this. It is a logical error to think this somehow validates Christianity. Many people in Western Europe have turned away from Christianity and have not come back. When people have economic security and feel safe, they feel more comfortable with leaving religion or converting to a more peaceful, low-demand religion such as Buddhism. When people are experiencing economic insecurity, violence, and uncertainties, they cling more to religions like Christianity and Islam. They are desperate, and these religions give them hope that things will get better. The problem is that no one is answering their prayers. In most of Africa, neither Christianity nor Islam has solved their problems. No supernatural being is going to save them. People also remained Jewish, Muslim, and pagans while they were being slaughtered by Christians in Europe for not practicing Christianity. What do any of these anecdotes prove? They prove that humans can be irrational, violent animals, not that any mythological system is true. 

In Muslim countries, you're more likely to face a harsher punishment for becoming an atheist than for converting to Christianity, but atheists still exist in those countries. Christianity is actually a protected religion, whereas being an atheist is officially punishable by death or imprisonment in over a dozen countries. Once again, what does any of this prove? Did you know that some U.S. states still have laws on the books that prohibit atheists from holding public office? They're only currently ignored because of the federal courts.

Most people leave religion for emotional reasons, not logical reasons. Contrary to popular belief, most atheists (this includes gnostic and agnostic atheists) left religion because of bad experiences rather than "not being given answers." Therefore, these types of people are prone to go back to religion when they're facing a hardship. Religion is an emotional support blanket. When it comes to spirituality, Homo sapiens are not fact-based creatures.

[PearsonOTHMQualifi7654]

Of course, there are historical figures in the Bible and some historical events in the Bible. SOME of the Bible has been corroborated. When history is mixed with myths, it's called a legend. Christians aren't the first or last group to create legends. You used "believe" a lot, but people across many religions believe a lot of things that are true and untrue. What is the point that is trying to be made? Most Christians do not believe the entire Bible should be taken literally, so they don't even believe everything that's in the Bible.

I also find the number of Christians, especially Black American Christians, who convert to Islam to be fascinating. Both Christianity and Islam have a long history of terrorizing, murdering, raping, and enslaving millions of Black Africans. Both religions have a history of extreme racism toward Black people. I find it interesting that there are descendants of Indigenous Americans who are still Christian, even though Christians genocided them. There are historical and psychosocial reasons for this. It is a logical error to think this somehow validates Christianity. Many people in Western Europe have turned away from Christianity and have not come back. When people have economic security and feel safe, they feel more comfortable with leaving religion or converting to a more peaceful, low-demand religion such as Buddhism. When people are experiencing economic insecurity, violence, and uncertainties, they cling more to religions like Christianity and Islam. They are desperate, and these religions give them hope that things will get better. The problem is that no one is answering their prayers. In most of Africa, neither Christianity nor Islam has solved their problems. No supernatural being is going to save them. People also remained Jewish, Muslim, and pagans while they were being slaughtered by Christians in Europe for not practicing Christianity. What do any of these anecdotes prove? They prove that humans can be irrational, violent animals, not that any mythological system is true. 

In Muslim countries, you're more likely to face a harsher punishment for becoming an atheist than for converting to Christianity, but atheists still exist in those countries. Christianity is actually a protected religion, whereas being an atheist is officially punishable by death or imprisonment in over a dozen countries. Once again, what does any of this prove? Did you know that some U.S. states still have laws on the books that prohibit atheists from holding public office? They're only currently ignored because of the federal courts.

Most people leave religion for emotional reasons, not logical reasons. Contrary to popular belief, most atheists (this includes gnostic and agnostic atheists) left religion because of bad experiences rather than "not being given answers." Therefore, these types of people are prone to go back to religion when they're facing a hardship. Religion is an emotional support blanket. When it comes to spirituality, Homo sapiens are not fact-based creatures.

Thank you for such a thoughtful response and for keeping the conversation respectful. I think we've come full circle.
Perhaps this is why so many of us spend years studying, earning degrees, reading history, philosophy, science, and theology. At the end of the day, I think we're all trying to answer the same questions: What is the meaning of life? How should we live? Is there something greater than ourselves?

I honestly expected a much harsher exchange, and I almost deleted my comments before posting them. I'm glad I didn't.

One thing I would say is that things people have done in the name of Christianity are not necessarily Christianity itself. Throughout history, many people who identified as Christians committed terrible acts such as slavery, racism, conquest, persecution, and violence. Those things happened, and they should not be ignored. But when I read the Gospels, I do not see Jesus commanding His followers to do those things. Christian doctrine calls believers to love God and love their neighbor, even their enemies.

Regarding the spread of Christianity, it is worth remembering that it began as a Jewish movement. Jesus was Jewish. His earliest followers were Jewish. The apostles were Jewish. The first Christians believed Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures and, according to Christian theology, God incarnate. Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire largely through Jewish communities scattered across the Mediterranean before it expanded more broadly among Gentiles.

As for Black Americans converting to Islam, I do not find that surprising at all. Given the history of slavery, segregation, and racism committed by people who identified as Christians, it is understandable that some would reject the religion they associate with those experiences and seek an identity elsewhere. If I had grown up hearing that God looked like a blond-haired, blue-eyed European while enduring that history, I can understand why Islam, or another faith, might seem more compelling. Again, I see that as a failure of people claiming Christ, not a reflection of Christ Himself.

One thing I find fascinating is how Jesus is regarded across many different religions.

• Buddhists often regard Jesus as an enlightened teacher.
  
• Many Hindus view Jesus as a holy man, guru, or in some traditions an incarnation (avatar) of God.
  
• The Hare Krishna movement (Gaudiya Vaishnavism) generally respects Jesus as a pure devotee of God or a divine representative, although beliefs vary and not all followers would describe Him as an avatar.
  
• Muslims believe Jesus (Isa) was born of the Virgin Mary, performed miracles by God's permission, is the Messiah, and will return before the Day of Judgment. While Muslims do not believe Jesus is God or the Son of God, the Qur'an refers to Him as the Messiah (al-Masih) and a Word from God (Kalimatullah), titles that make Him unique among the prophets in Islam.
  

It seems that almost everyone has something to say about Jesus.

As for Judaism, Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism eventually developed along different paths after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. Rabbinic Judaism places significant emphasis on the Oral Torah, which it holds was given alongside the Written Torah to Moses and was later preserved in the Mishnah and expanded in the Gemara, together forming the Talmud. The Midrash is another body of rabbinic interpretation and commentary on Scripture.

Christians and Rabbinic Jews interpret many of the same Old Testament passages differently. Christians see those passages as pointing to Jesus as the Messiah, while Rabbinic Judaism interprets them within a different theological framework and does not accept Jesus as the promised Messiah. Those differences are among the central reasons the two traditions developed separately.

It's become quite evident, at least to me, that we human beings are not purely fact-based creatures. We are deeply influenced by our emotions, our experiences, our upbringing, and the communities around us. Because of that, it can be difficult for any of us to accept evidence that challenges what we already believe.

From my own experiences in life, I have come to believe that truth is eternal. Truth itself does not change, but our understanding of it does. I also believe we have to genuinely want to seek the truth before we are able to recognize it, even if that truth challenges our own assumptions. That is why I think humility is just as important as knowledge. The willingness to say, "I might be wrong," is often the first step toward discovering what is right.

One verse that has stayed with me throughout my life is when Jesus said, "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:32) Whether someone believes those words came from the Son of God or simply from a remarkable historical teacher, I think there is profound wisdom in them. If we sincerely seek truth with humility and an open heart, I believe we stand the best chance of recognizing it when we find it.

At the end of the day, I do not expect a single online conversation to change anyone's mind. I simply enjoy thoughtful discussions with people who have studied these topics deeply. We may not agree on everything, but I appreciate respectful conversations where people can disagree without insulting one another. Those kinds of conversations are becoming far too rare, and I am grateful this was one of them.

[NotJoeBiden]

What is the meaning of life?

42

[wow]

This whole thread broke off because someone asked about the religious and political beliefs a certain school ascribes to, someone described the religious and political beliefs, someone asked how those descriptions were arrived at, someone explained. I feel like the conversation could have wrapped up with the explanation. But it just keeps going.

It's not uncommon for me to see people on this board express religious beliefs I don't agree with. You know what I do? I go, "Okay, that's what they believe," and move on.